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[Fwd: File - Introduce Yourself Please]

  • Add
  • By makas_nc | Fri, 2006-03-03 17:57





    -------- Original Message --------

    Subject: Re: File - Introduce Yourself Please
    Date: Fri, 03 Mar 2006 13:12:55 -0800 (PST)
    From: y b <ybinsouthsac@yahoo.com>
    To: ranchos Moderator <ranchos-owner@yahoogroups.com>





    Hi,
    I was not sure now to send in my introduction, so I
    am sending it to you in a word doc.
    Yvonne



     Family Genealogist



    Yvonne sent me her introduction so here it
    is. . .welcome to the group Yvonne. . .lots of nice people in the
    group, feel free to post any questions you might have and ideas and
    teach us some things you have learned. This group is for you as the
    individual member. No one is better than anyone here. we're all equals.



    welcome,



    joseph



    ====================


    Hi Everyone,

    I am new to the Ranchos Group and I am excited to
    be a
    “Rancho” member. I live in Sacramento,
    Ca. and have assisted my sister with genealogy since the late 70’s but
    really
    stared digging into our family history for about 7 years now. We have
    been
    collecting documents such as obituaries, death, marriage, birth
    certificates,
    photos and more. We have been using the FHC, public libraries, web
    sites,
    cemeteries, mortuaries, vitals and family to obtain any documents and
    information to build on our tree. We have traveled to Texas
    to meet and record our Grand Aunt (98 this April) to get family
    history. She is
    sharp as a whip and has a lot of family information. We have also gone
    to
    Jalpa, Zac. to meet our distant cousins and get information from them
    and go to
    the old cemetery. And we have gone to several family reunions, which
    are our
    distant cousins but didn’t know us until we showed them how we are
    connected
    through use of our family tree. We are very dedicated in our research
    and enjoy
    exploring the past.

     

    The surnames of my family that is in the three
    areas for
    this site are, Sandoval, Macias, Cuellar, Hernandez, Calvillo, Herrera,
    Viramontes, Guerrero, Luevano and Rodriguez.

     

    I am also searching in Jalisco, Guanajuato and
    Michocan, for
    Villegas, Soto, Rodriguez, Guillen, Estrada, Chavarria, Ramirez and
    Montes, and
    in Sonora; Fimbres,
    Villanueva,
    Guerrero and Carranza.

     

    My husband Anthony (who works along side me in all
    my
    research and travels) and I are also researching his family in Zacatecas,
    Chihuahua and Guanajuato those
    surnames are
    Beltran, Banda, Valverde, Mosqueda, Jaime, Lopez and Martinez.

     

     

     

    New Rancho Member

    Yvonne Hernandez Beltran

    Anthony Mosqueda Beltran


    • Log in to post comments

    albertodua

    19 years 6 months ago

    Permalink

    [Fwd: File - Introduce Yourself Please]

    Welcome.

    Albert Daurte Prieto
    Santa Maria, California

    wlm27mhm (not verified)

    19 years 6 months ago

    Permalink

    In reply to [Fwd: File - Introduce Yourself Please] by albertodua

    [Fwd: File - Introduce Yourself Please]

    Welcome Yvonne & Anthony; I also have Mosqueda roots
    but not from our research area, they are from
    Michoacan. Hilda Mosqueda McGuire

    > >
    > > The surnames of my family that is in the three
    > areas
    > > for this site are,
    > > Sandoval, Macias, Cuellar, Hernandez, Calvillo,
    > > Herrera, Viramontes,
    > > Guerrero, Luevano and Rodriguez.
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > > I am also searching in Jalisco, Guanajuato and
    > > Michocan, for Villegas,
    > > Soto, Rodriguez, Guillen, Estrada, Chavarria,
    > > Ramirez and Montes, and in
    > > Sonora; Fimbres, Villanueva, Guerrero and
    > Carranza.
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > > My husband Anthony (who works along side me in all
    > > my research and
    > > travels) and I are also researching his family in
    > > Zacatecas, Chihuahua
    > > and Guanajuato those surnames are Beltran, Banda,
    > > Valverde, Mosqueda,
    > > Jaime, Lopez and Martinez.
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > > New Rancho Member
    > >
    > > Yvonne Hernandez Beltran
    > >
    > > Anthony Mosqueda Beltran
    > >
    > >
    > >
    >
    >
    > __________________________________________________
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    >

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    jovana viramontes (not verified)

    19 years 2 months ago

    Permalink

    viramontes surname research

    hi i am jovana viramontes i am also researching the surname viramontes from jalpa zacatecas. i have been stuck because none of my family seems to know the names of greatgrand parents i have written many letters and have spent many hours on the internet trying to find anyone who might possible be link with us. i am a new member and very please to be finally other i can relate to hope to hear from you.we are in lakewood california.

    jovana viramontes (not verified)

    19 years 2 months ago

    Permalink

    In reply to viramontes surname research by jovana viramontes (not verified)

    thanks to everyone

    i just wanted to thank everyone who has help me in providing me with tid bits of information on how i can look for my ancestore. i apperciate it . have a great weekend

    ayalarobles

    19 years 2 months ago

    Permalink

    Introduction

    My name is Esther A. Herold. I have been doing genealogin research since 1993. I am researching in many states in Mexico for the following surnames:

    Coahuila:
    Ayala, Arredondo, Robles, Trevino, Gutierrez, Zavala, Zamora, Yrigollen, La Mancha, Ybarra, Elizondo, Gonzalez, Barrera, Rodriguez, Flores de Valdez, Ssanchez Navarro, Navarro, Arriola, de la Cerda, Rivas, Perales, Pinto, Munguia, Urdinola, Garza, Farias, Hernandez, Montemayor, Del Canto, Flores Abrego, La Mancha, Lobo GUerrero

    Zecatecas: Zavala, Sepulveda, Trevino, Robles, Elizondo, Ybarra, La Mancha, Munguia, Ayala, Velasco, Banuelos, Urdinola, Garza, Farias
    Del Canto, Zaldivar, Onate, La Mancha,

    Nuevo Leon:
    Ayala, Arredondo, Sepulveda, Garza, Villarreal, Arriola, Elizondo, ANcira, Yslas Palacios, Farias, Garcia, Zaldivar, Trevino, Flores, Ramos Arriola, Yslas Palacios, Barrera, Munguia, Cantu, Fernandez,
    Pinto, Rivas, Los Santos, Casas, Rodriguez Montemayor, Montemayor,

    San Luis Potosi:
    Lobo Guerrero, Pinto, Galvez, Acosta, Los Santos, Ramos Arriola, Zaldivar, Melendez

    Guanajuato:
    Lobo Guerrero, Acosta,

    Jose Aguayo Ortega

    19 years 2 months ago

    Permalink

    In reply to Introduction by ayalarobles

    Introduction

    I believe that I told you about the following book available from
    Borderlands Books. It has a great deal of information about the Sanchez
    Navarro family. At the back of the book is a family tree spanning about 13
    generations. I would be glad to share it with you at our next meeting --
    September -- since I will be in California and Mexico in August.

    A Mexican Family Empire: The Latifundio of the Sanchez Navarros, 1765-1867
    by Charles H. Harris III.

    Jose Aguayo

    margeval

    19 years 2 months ago

    Permalink

    In reply to Introduction by ayalarobles

    Introduction

    Hi, Esther,
    some of your Zacatecas names are definitely related to mine--Zaldivar,
    Bañuelos, Velasco, Oñate, and Treviño. Marge V:)

    >
    > Zecatecas: Zavala, Sepulveda, Trevino, Robles, Elizondo, Ybarra, La
    > Mancha, Munguia, Ayala, Velasco, Banuelos, Urdinola, Garza, Farias
    > Del Canto, Zaldivar, Onate, La Mancha,
    >
    > Nuevo Leon:
    > Ayala, Arredondo, Sepulveda, Garza, Villarreal, Arriola, Elizondo,
    > ANcira, Yslas Palacios, Farias, Garcia, Zaldivar, Trevino, Flores,
    > Ramos Arriola, Yslas Palacios, Barrera, Munguia, Cantu, Fernandez,
    > Pinto, Rivas, Los Santos, Casas, Rodriguez Montemayor, Montemayor,
    >
    > San Luis Potosi:
    > Lobo Guerrero, Pinto, Galvez, Acosta, Los Santos, Ramos Arriola,
    > Zaldivar, Melendez
    >
    > Guanajuato:
    > Lobo Guerrero, Acosta,
    >

    josiett

    19 years 2 months ago

    Permalink

    In reply to Introduction by margeval

    Introduction

    Hi!

    I am also related to all those: Trevino, Banuelos, Zaldivar, Velasco,
    Onate, etc, etc. in Zacatecas as well as Sepulveda, Ayala and all the others
    from Nuevo Leon. My father's line (Trevino-Villarreal) originates in Nuevo
    Leon......My "brick wall" is in Zacatecas with the surnames "Liendo" and "De
    la Rosa"........two unusual names~!

    I just had foot surgery and will be housebound for a short while so I hope
    to get some genealogy done~!

    Ernie, I will see what I can do on those names you sent me, ok?

    Josie in San Antonio

    -----Original Message-----
    From: general-bounces@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
    [mailto:general-bounces@lists.nuestrosranchos.org] On Behalf Of M. Vallazza
    Sent: Monday, July 17, 2006 6:01 PM
    To: general@nuestrosranchos.org
    Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Introduction

    Hi, Esther,
    some of your Zacatecas names are definitely related to mine--Zaldivar,
    Bañuelos, Velasco, Oñate, and Treviño. Marge V:)

    >
    > Zecatecas: Zavala, Sepulveda, Trevino, Robles, Elizondo, Ybarra, La
    > Mancha, Munguia, Ayala, Velasco, Banuelos, Urdinola, Garza, Farias Del
    > Canto, Zaldivar, Onate, La Mancha,
    >
    > Nuevo Leon:
    > Ayala, Arredondo, Sepulveda, Garza, Villarreal, Arriola, Elizondo,
    > ANcira, Yslas Palacios, Farias, Garcia, Zaldivar, Trevino, Flores,
    > Ramos Arriola, Yslas Palacios, Barrera, Munguia, Cantu, Fernandez,
    > Pinto, Rivas, Los Santos, Casas, Rodriguez Montemayor, Montemayor,
    >
    > San Luis Potosi:
    > Lobo Guerrero, Pinto, Galvez, Acosta, Los Santos, Ramos Arriola,
    > Zaldivar, Melendez
    >
    > Guanajuato:
    > Lobo Guerrero, Acosta,
    >

    chula801

    19 years 2 months ago

    Permalink

    intro

    hi everyone! i live in orem, utah, and although i haven't personally done any family history research before, my dad and grandma have researched my side of the family extensively. so i'm new to all this and i've just started doing the genealogy for my husband's family who are mostly from MASCOTA,JALISCO since no one has even started. i've begun talking to family members, requesting film, marriage, birth and death records, etc, and am hoping to get down there at some point. i would love any other tips you more seasoned veterans of genealogy may have for me to help me along.

    the surnames i'm looking for are jimenez, castillo, rodriguez, curiel, hernandez, pena, lopez and diaz. right now, since i've just started, i'm just looking in the late 1800's to early 1900's.

    so in behalf of my husband and myself, thanks for your help (in advance!)

    lavaniya sutton jimenez
    j. gabriel jimenez castillo

    makas_nc

    19 years 1 month ago

    Permalink

    In reply to intro by chula801

    Preserve The Oral History: was-intro

    get out a tape recorder and seek every old family member and ask them to
    tell you the "stories" of when they were in Mexico. Or of what their
    parents or grandparents told them about being in Mexico. Be careful not
    to ask an older person a point blank question about when so and so was
    born or died but rather ask them questions that you can deduce the date
    from: e.g. when Abuelito Agapito died were you already married then? If
    you were married do you know if your son Plutarco was born yet?

    Don't interrupt to often but just get them started with some open ended
    questions and let the tape recorder roll. IF they get off track gently
    bring them back on track with another open ended question, but in
    general let them tell their stories their way. Jot down short notes
    about interesting things they said and then later ask them to expound on
    those points a little more.

    the records on film will continue to wait for several more generations,
    but the oral history dies with each generation that dies. "Preserve the
    Oral History."

    joseph

    chula801 wrote:

    >hi everyone! i live in orem, utah, and although i haven't personally done any family history research before, my dad and grandma have researched my side of the family extensively. so i'm new to all this and i've just started doing the genealogy for my husband's family who are mostly from MASCOTA,JALISCO since no one has even started. i've begun talking to family members, requesting film, marriage, birth and death records, etc, and am hoping to get down there at some point. i would love any other tips you more seasoned veterans of genealogy may have for me to help me along.
    >
    >the surnames i'm looking for are jimenez, castillo, rodriguez, curiel, hernandez, pena, lopez and diaz. right now, since i've just started, i'm just looking in the late 1800's to early 1900's.
    >
    >
    >so in behalf of my husband and myself, thanks for your help (in advance!)
    >
    >lavaniya sutton jimenez
    >j. gabriel jimenez castillo
    >
    >

    manuel

    19 years 1 month ago

    Permalink

    In reply to intro by chula801

    intro

    Hi, I`m from Denver, Co.
    I have family [Castillo] from Nochistlan, Zacatecas and Diaz from Canadas, Jalisco. Both these back to the 1880`s Manuel

    chula801 wrote:

    hi everyone! i live in orem, utah, and although i haven't personally done any family history research before, my dad and grandma have researched my side of the family extensively. so i'm new to all this and i've just started doing the genealogy for my husband's family who are mostly from MASCOTA,JALISCO since no one has even started. i've begun talking to family members, requesting film, marriage, birth and death records, etc, and am hoping to get down there at some point. i would love any other tips you more seasoned veterans of genealogy may have for me to help me along.

    the surnames i'm looking for are jimenez, castillo, rodriguez, curiel, hernandez, pena, lopez and diaz. right now, since i've just started, i'm just looking in the late 1800's to early 1900's.

    so in behalf of my husband and myself, thanks for your help (in advance!)

    lavaniya sutton jimenez
    j. gabriel jimenez castillo

    makas_nc

    19 years 1 month ago

    Permalink

    In reply to intro by manuel

    Manuel's intro

    So are you using your Family History Center in Denver? have you used the
    www.familyserarch.org site to find and order films yet?

    unfortunately for Canadas, Jalisco the pickens are slim as they only
    have Civil records and no church records. . .what follows is a partial
    listing:

    Title
    Registros civiles del municipio de Cañadas de Obregón, Jalisco, 1870-1984

    Authors
    Cañadas de Obregón (Jalisco). Registro Civil (Main Author)

    Notes
    Microfilme de manuscritos en el Archivo del Registro Civil del Estado de
    Jalisco.
    Civil registers of births, marriages and deaths from Cañadas, Jalisco,
    Mexico. From 1870 to 1929 this muncipality was called Cañadas. From 1930
    to 1980 it was Villa Obregón and since 1981 Cañadas de Obregón. Includes
    the office of Temacapulin.
    El municipio de Cañadas de Obregón se denominada Cañadas desde 1870 a
    1929 y de 1930 a 1980, Villa Obregón y desde 1981 el nombre del
    corriente. Incluye la oficialía de Temacapulin.
    Algunos libros incluyen índices.

    Subjects
    México, Jalisco, Cañadas de Obregón - Civil registration

    Format
    Manuscript (On Film)

    Language
    Spanish

    Publication
    Salt Lake City, Utah : Filmados por la Sociedad Genealógica de Utah,
    1958-2002

    Physical
    en 167 carretes de microfilme ; 35 mm.

    Film Notes
    Note - Location [Film]
    Nacimientos 1870 - VAULT INTL Film [ 215455 Item 2 ]
    Nacimientos 1878 - FHL INTL Film [ 215465 Item 6 ]
    Nacimientos 1879 - FHL INTL Film [ 215469 Item 3 ]
    Nacimientos 1880 - FHL INTL Film [ 215471 Item 6 ]
    Nacimientos 1881 - FHL INTL Film [ 215475 Item 9 ]
    Nacimientos 1882 - FHL INTL Film [ 215478 Item 6 ]
    Nacimientos 1883 - FHL INTL Film [ 215482 Item 6 ]
    Nacimientos 1884 - FHL INTL Film [ 215486 Item 5 ]
    Nacimientos 1885 - FHL INTL Film [ 215490 Item 4 ]
    Nacimientos 1888 - VAULT INTL Film [ 215497 Item 3 ]
    Nacimientos 1889 - FHL INTL Film [ 215500 Item 5 ]
    Nacimientos 1890 - FHL INTL Film [ 215503 Item 4 ]
    Nacimientos 1891 - VAULT INTL Film [ 278605 Item 4 ]
    Nacimientos 1892 - FHL INTL Film [ 278631 Item 1 ]
    Nacimientos 1893 - FHL INTL Film [ 278655 Item 1 ]
    Nacimientos 1894 - VAULT INTL Film [ 278679 Item 3 ]
    Nacimientos 1895 - VAULT INTL Film [ 278710 Item 5 ]
    Nacimientos 1896 - VAULT INTL Film [ 278743 Item 6 ]
    Nacimientos 1897 - VAULT INTL Film [ 278775 Item 5 ]
    Nacimientos 1898 - VAULT INTL Film [ 278806 Item 1 ]
    Nacimientos 1899 - VAULT INTL Film [ 278838 Item 1 ]
    Nacimientos 1901 - VAULT INTL Film [ 278866 Item 4 ]
    Matrimonios 1870 - VAULT INTL Film [ 215507 Item 2 ]
    Matrimonios 1878 - FHL INTL Film [ 215514 Item 17 ]
    Matrimonios 1880 - FHL INTL Film [ 215518 Item 15 ]
    Matrimonios 1881 - FHL INTL Film [ 215522 Item 6 ]
    Matrimonios 1882 - FHL INTL Film [ 215523 Item 1 ]
    Matrimonios 1883 - FHL INTL Film [ 215526 Item 7 ]
    Matrimonios 1884 - VAULT INTL Film [ 215529 Item 6 ]
    Matrimonios 1885 - FHL INTL Film [ 215532 Item 5 ]
    Matrimonios 1886 - FHL INTL Film [ 215534 Item 5 ]
    Matrimonios 1877 - VAULT INTL Film [ 212001 Item 3 ]
    Matrimonios 1887 - FHL INTL Film [ 215537 Item 2 ]
    Matrimonios 1888 - FHL INTL Film [ 215539 Item 2 ]
    Matrimonios 1888 - VAULT INTL Film [ 212001 Item 3 ]
    Matrimonios 1889 - FHL INTL Film [ 215541 Item 5 ]
    Matrimonios 1890 - VAULT INTL Film [ 212124 Item 7 ]
    Matrimonios 1891 - FHL INTL Film [ 212137 Item 4 ]
    Matrimonios 1892 - FHL INTL Film [ 212151 Item 3 ]
    Matrimonios 1893 - FHL INTL Film [ 212166 Item 8 ]
    Matrimonios 1894 - FHL INTL Film [ 212180 Item 14 ]
    Matrimonios 1895 - FHL INTL Film [ 212201 Item 6 ]
    Matrimonios 1896 - FHL INTL Film [ 212224 Item 5 ]
    Matrimonios 1897 - VAULT INTL Film [ 212245 Item 13 ]
    Matrimonios 1899 - FHL INTL Film [ 212289 Item 7 ]
    Matrimonios 1900 - VAULT INTL Film [ 212308 Item 7 ]
    Defunciones 1870 - VAULT INTL Film [ 214780 Item 5 ]
    Defunciones 1878 - VAULT INTL Film [ 214849 Item 7 ]
    Defunciones 1879 - FHL INTL Film [ 214863 Items 6-7 ]
    Defunciones 1880 - FHL INTL Film [ 214868 Item 7 ]
    Defunciones 1881 - FHL INTL Film [ 214882 Item 10 ]
    Defunciones 1882 - VAULT INTL Film [ 214895 Item 6 ]
    Defunciones 1883 - FHL INTL Film [ 214906 Item 10 ]
    Defunciones 1885 - FHL INTL Film [ 214935 Item 6 ]
    Defunciones 1886 - FHL INTL Film [ 214951 Item 5 ]
    Defunciones 1887 - FHL INTL Film [ 214963 Item 1 ]
    Defunciones 1888 - FHL INTL Film [ 214973 Item 2 ]
    Defunciones 1889 - FHL INTL Film [ 214988 Item 4 ]
    Defunciones 1890 - VAULT INTL Film [ 215005 Item 7 ]
    Defunciones 1892 - FHL INTL Film [ 215037 Item 3 ]
    Defunciones 1893 - FHL INTL Film [ 215053 Item 7 ]
    Defunciones 1894 - FHL INTL Film [ 215071 Item 2 ]
    Defunciones 1895 - FHL INTL Film [ 215094 Item 9 ]
    Defunciones 1896 - FHL INTL Film [ 215113 Item 2 ]
    Defunciones 1896 - FHL INTL Film [ 215113 Item 2 ]
    Defunciones 1897 - VAULT INTL Film [ 215136 Item 10 ]
    Defunciones 1898 - VAULT INTL Film [ 215156 Item 9 ]
    Defunciones 1899 - VAULT INTL Film [ 215179 Item 4 ]
    Defunciones 1900 - VAULT INTL Film [ 215201 Item 7 ]
    Nacimientos 1900-sept. 1902 - VAULT INTL Film [ 2072201 Items 21 - 23 ]
    Nacimientos sept. 1902-jul. 1909 - VAULT INTL Film [ 2072202 ]
    Nacimientos jul. 1909-1915 - VAULT INTL Film [ 2072203 ]
    Nacimientos 1916-jun. 1921 - VAULT INTL Film [ 2072204 ]
    Nacimientos jun. 1921-1924, 1927-1929 - VAULT INTL Film [ 2072205 ]
    Nacimientos 1920 -- Matrimonios 1900-1905 - VAULT INTL Film [ 2072206 ]
    Matrimonios 1906-1914 - VAULT INTL Film [ 2072207 ]
    Matrimonios 1915-ene. 1923 - VAULT INTL Film [ 2072208 ]
    Matrimonios ene. 1923-1924, abr. 1927-1931, 1933-ene. 1939 - VAULT INTL
    Film [ 2072209 ]
    Matrimonios ene. 1929-1950 -- Defunciones 1900-1905 - VAULT INTL Film [
    2072210 ]
    Defunciones 1906-jun. 1916 - VAULT INTL Film [ 2072219 ]
    Defunciones jun. 1916-1923, 1927-1930 - VAULT INTL Film [ 2072220 ]
    Defunciones 1931, 1933-1936, 1938-1955 - VAULT INTL Film [ 2072221 ]
    Defunciones 1956, 1958-1972, 1974-1983 - VAULT INTL Film [ 2072222
    Items 1 - 25 ]
    Defunciones 1953-1984 -- Nacimientos 1916-1917 -- Matrimonios 1916-1917
    -- Defunciones 1916-1917, ene.-sept. 1921 - VAULT INTL Film [ 2072264 ]
    Defunciones sept.-dic. 1921 (duplicaciones) - VAULT INTL Film [ 2072265
    Item 1 ]
    Nacimientos, matrimonios, defunciones 1870 - VAULT INTL Film [ 2237551
    Item 6 ]
    Nacimientos, matrimonios, defunciones 1878-1884 -- Nacimientos 1885 -
    VAULT INTL Film [ 2237552 ]
    Matrimonios, defunciones 1885 -- Nacimientos, matrimonios, defunciones
    1886-1890 - VAULT INTL Film [ 2237566 ]
    TEMACAPULIN:
    Nacimientos 1877 - FHL INTL Film [ 215464 Item 1 ]
    Nacimientos 1878 - FHL INTL Film [ 215467 Item 7 ]
    Nacimientos 1879 - VAULT INTL Film [ 2237660 Item 2 ]
    Nacimientos 1880 - FHL INTL Film [ 215474 Item 4 ]
    Nacimientos 1881 - FHL INTL Film [ 215477 Item 5 ]
    Nacimientos 1882 - VAULT INTL Film [ 215481 Item 4 ]
    Nacimientos 1883 - FHL INTL Film [ 215485 Item 5 ]
    Nacimientos 1884 - FHL INTL Film [ 215488 Item 8 ]
    Nacimientos 1885 - VAULT INTL Film [ 215492 Item 6 ]
    Nacimientos 1886 - FHL INTL Film [ 215494 Item 11 ]
    Nacimientos 1887 - FHL INTL Film [ 215496 Item 12 ]

    Numbers 1-100 of 167 film notes.

    [Next film notes
    ]

    © 2002 Intellectual Reserve, Inc. All rights reserved.

    manuel castillo wrote:

    >Hi, I`m from Denver, Co.
    > I have family [Castillo] from Nochistlan, Zacatecas and Diaz from Canadas, Jalisco. Both these back to the 1880`s Manuel
    >
    >
    >
    >

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